purchase choices and configuration questions

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dbreiser
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:11 pm

purchase choices and configuration questions

Post by dbreiser » Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:46 pm

I've been interested in a GEM for a while, and it looks like my wife might agree to let me buy one as a gift for one of those milestone (millstone??) birthdays.

It looks like I can buy a GEM and a Dashbox and not have to get a wifi/ethernet module. Is that correct? I'll have a wired switch within 2 feet of the Dashbox, and I prefer wired connections to wireless for heavy comms choices anyway. From the docs, it looks like configuring the GEM through the Dashbox is reasonably straightforward. But I can't tell for sure if updating the GEM firmware via the Dashbox connection is doable.

Every sensor I've ever used (and had access to calibration data) has always been more accurate in the center of its range than at either end. There is only one circuit in my house that ever draws more than 40 amps (the heat pump defrost reheater @ 48amps straight resistive), and that's on about 100 hours per year. There are a raft of 15 and 20 amp circuits that probably draw 7 or 8 amps max when they're used. The heat pump compressor, the dryer, and the water heater (the biggest power users) are around 20 amps each, so they'd be right at the center of a micro-40 CT. But almost everything else would always be below 25% of the micro-40 capacity. Is there any point to trying to get better accuracy by using a micro-50 on any of the lower power circuits?

I do have a Neurio, which will probably provide a decent crosscheck on some GEM situations -- it was within 0.5% of the power company's bills for 4 months straight in April-July last year. But it doesn't give me the device specific information I'd like.

Dave
Teken
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Re: purchase choices and configuration questions

Post by Teken » Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:39 pm

dbreiser wrote:I've been interested in a GEM for a while, and it looks like my wife might agree to let me buy one as a gift for one of those milestone (millstone??) birthdays.

It looks like I can buy a GEM and a Dashbox and not have to get a wifi/ethernet module. Is that correct? I'll have a wired switch within 2 feet of the Dashbox, and I prefer wired connections to wireless for heavy comms choices anyway. From the docs, it looks like configuring the GEM through the Dashbox is reasonably straightforward. But I can't tell for sure if updating the GEM firmware via the Dashbox connection is doable.

Every sensor I've ever used (and had access to calibration data) has always been more accurate in the center of its range than at either end. There is only one circuit in my house that ever draws more than 40 amps (the heat pump defrost reheater @ 48amps straight resistive), and that's on about 100 hours per year. There are a raft of 15 and 20 amp circuits that probably draw 7 or 8 amps max when they're used. The heat pump compressor, the dryer, and the water heater (the biggest power users) are around 20 amps each, so they'd be right at the center of a micro-40 CT. But almost everything else would always be below 25% of the micro-40 capacity. Is there any point to trying to get better accuracy by using a micro-50 on any of the lower power circuits?

I do have a Neurio, which will probably provide a decent crosscheck on some GEM situations -- it was within 0.5% of the power company's bills for 4 months straight in April-July last year. But it doesn't give me the device specific information I'd like.

Dave
Hello Dave,

Firmware is loaded using the GEM v5.9 Network Utility Tool. The GEM is a long term purchase and the small amount of money you spend to upgrade to Micro 50 CT's will be long gone from your head in four months.

It really comes down to if finances are the main driver vs overall accuracy. Having said this the Micro 40's have been for me as accurate as the Micro 50's. Keeping in mind the GEM has several other fine tuning elements to obtain the most accuracy from the system as a whole.

With respect to comparing the Neurio to the GEM its like comparing a Porsche to a kids push tracker toy.

All of these toy like appliances whether it be Aeotecs HEM, Smappy, Neurio have never offered any level of accuracy never mind real world applications of the information. If you some how found yourself here you already know why the Brultech GEM & Dash Box is being used by those serious about performance, development, and integration.

None of the brands I listed above will ever do the same . . .
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
Buy me a cup of coffee: https://www.paypal.me/Teken https://gfinotify.com/ Discount Code: PC10
sub3marathonman
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:32 am

Re: purchase choices and configuration questions

Post by sub3marathonman » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:13 am

dbreiser wrote: Every sensor I've ever used (and had access to calibration data) has always been more accurate in the center of its range than at either end.
Dave
In the past, there were graphs of the CT40 and CT80 accuracy over a range of amperage, I used to be able to see them but now they're not there. I'm wondering if ben can post a link again? Otherwise, I might have the charts recorded on the computer here somewhere, if I need to find them.

One other consideration when deciding on the CTs is if you will be combining channels. The combined channels must be the same CT version (CT40 or CT80), just the same type isn't good enough. The next consideration is that a CT40 will be able to have two, or possibly three channels combined before reaching (or with three just slightly exceeding) the maximum, whereas the CT80 has much more possibility for combinations. For my project, I ended up running into a bit of a problem with this, and had to switch a few CT40s and CT80s around so I could combine the channels I wanted to combine. I also ended up with a channel with six circuits monitored by CT40s, which is a technical violation but some of the circuits are rarely used. I don't know if anybody has ever his the upper limit of even a CT40, but of course if anybody has it would be Tekken.

There is also a price differential for buying a certain number of CTs, so instead of buying 10 CT40s and 10 CT80s, I think it is a better deal to just get 20 of one or the other.

I was in a similar situation with debating about a purchase, but this was back when the ECM 1240 was the only one available and I'm happy I waited for and purchased the GEM. I did not get the Dashbox, and while easier, I still couldn't spend that much more for the project.
ben
Site Admin
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Re: purchase choices and configuration questions

Post by ben » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:26 am

dbreiser wrote:I've been interested in a GEM for a while, and it looks like my wife might agree to let me buy one as a gift for one of those milestone (millstone??) birthdays.

It looks like I can buy a GEM and a Dashbox and not have to get a wifi/ethernet module. Is that correct? I'll have a wired switch within 2 feet of the Dashbox, and I prefer wired connections to wireless for heavy comms choices anyway. From the docs, it looks like configuring the GEM through the Dashbox is reasonably straightforward. But I can't tell for sure if updating the GEM firmware via the Dashbox connection is doable.
The DashBox COM1 is linked to Port 8001 and COM2 is linked to Port 8002. You can configure and update the GEM through either of those ports.
sub3marathonman wrote: In the past, there were graphs of the CT40 and CT80 accuracy over a range of amperage, I used to be able to see them but now they're not there. I'm wondering if ben can post a link again? Otherwise, I might have the charts recorded on the computer here somewhere, if I need to find them.
We still have them, they were up on the store but it looks like those links broke while migrating to the newer website. I'll get them back up today.

Paul did some more recent tests on the Micro-40s and they're actually very accurate. We were considering having another more accurate option but given the size/accuracy, there's no need.
Ben
Brultech Research Inc.
E: ben(at)brultech.com
Teken
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Location: The Bad Lands

Re: purchase choices and configuration questions

Post by Teken » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:24 am

It should be noted when speaking about the electrical system in the home. Code (NEC/CEC) mandate no circuit should exceed 80% ampacity of the wiring.

This same premise should be used for any of the CT's in the GEM. Following these basic guidelines will ensure accuracy, reliability, and long term use. The reality is most homes at the lower range have 15/20 amp breakers and the Micro-40 CT is more than fine to use.

In my opinion when the breaker exceeds the above. To remain in the 80% range the next larger CT should be used. So for example if the next breaker is 30 amps I would move straight to a Micro-50 with out thought.

As many here have done to allow this large buffer and margin of safety it was just easier to purchase the Micro-50 and know from a installation stand point you weren't going to run into a situation where the wire was too thick. You have the added benefit of higher tolerances and of course a CT that can measure anything up to 50 amps.

In the big picture its a personal choice and the accuracy for any of the CT's Brultech offers is miles ahead of the competition along with value pricing.
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
Buy me a cup of coffee: https://www.paypal.me/Teken https://gfinotify.com/ Discount Code: PC10
sub3marathonman
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:32 am

Re: purchase choices and configuration questions

Post by sub3marathonman » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:46 am

Teken wrote:It should be noted when speaking about the electrical system in the home. Code (NEC/CEC) mandate no circuit should exceed 80% ampacity of the wiring.

This same premise should be used for any of the CT's in the GEM. Following these basic guidelines will ensure accuracy, reliability, and long term use. The reality is most homes at the lower range have 15/20 amp breakers and the Micro-40 CT is more than fine to use.

In my opinion when the breaker exceeds the above. To remain in the 80% range the next larger CT should be used. So for example if the next breaker is 30 amps I would move straight to a Micro-50 with out thought.
I'm going to have to disagree with Teken, not with the beneficial result of using a larger CT, but with the reason (NEC code 80% rule) for it. I also wouldn't choose the CT50, but that is more a result of Brultech pricing (just a fact and not an objection), and having to pay much more for the slight (in my opinion) increase in accuracy.

These CTs have a 24ga wire, which is rated
( https://www.gore.com/IndustrialCableCon ... specs.html )
for 2 amps. The CT40 will generate 0.02623 amps (26.23 mA) maximum, at 40 amps, or just over 1.3% of the maximum capacity of the wire. If you somehow managed to put 80 amps through the wire monitored by a CT40, it would, if I understand how Brultech CTs operate, still generate 0.02623 A, but even if the output voltage kept going up (in a linear manner) you would still just be at 2.6% of the maximum capacity of the wire.

Also, the CTs that Brultech sells are extremely accurate. Taking the CT40 again, a 1% error high is possible at some points, but at other points a 1% low error is possible. And, contrary to what dbreiser stated, "Every sensor I've ever used (and had access to calibration data) has always been more accurate in the center of its range than at either end," and not to disparage dbreiser as that is what I would have thought too, the least accurate (average) point for the CT40 is in the center of its range. And as "least accurate" is relative, this is still within 1%, so even if every circuit was monitored by a CT40, as a worst case scenario the overall accuracy of the combined circuits would still be, yes 1%, but I would think fairly close to 0%. I don't see the chart for the CT50, but even if it cuts the error to 0.5%, I don't really see a huge difference, in these home monitoring situations.

I also have to calculate in the economic costs for relying on the CT50 vs. CT40 or CT80, based on the pricing structure at Brultech. The Micro40 and Micro80 CTs cost $4.99 each, or down to $3.60 with 20 purchased. The Micro50 is $6.12 each, no matter how many are ordered. With 32 channels on the GEM, an order of 40 CTs is within reason. For the CT40 and/or CT80s, you'd be at $144.00 vs. $244.80, just over $100 saved, which in my opinion is significant. (And yes, with the correct choices Brultech gives more options when ordered as packages, but this is just to illustrate an example.)

If I was doing things over, I would order only the CT80s, instead of a mixture of CT40s and CT80s as I did. I had to then keep track of which circuits were CT40s and which were CT80s, and ran into the upsetting problem that some of the circuits I wanted to combine for monitoring were using different CTs, so I had to go back and swap CTs. And it ended up that I wanted to combine four circuits for monitoring, which was a technical overage for the CT40s, and I have to rely on the probability that all circuits won't be on and used at maximum simultaneously. Also, as previously referenced, at a minimum 20 CTs should be ordered for the price break, so if you ended up with 30 CT40s and 10 CT80s it would be more expensive.
Teken
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Re: purchase choices and configuration questions

Post by Teken » Thu Jan 28, 2016 10:48 am

sub3marathonman wrote:
Teken wrote:It should be noted when speaking about the electrical system in the home. Code (NEC/CEC) mandate no circuit should exceed 80% ampacity of the wiring.

This same premise should be used for any of the CT's in the GEM. Following these basic guidelines will ensure accuracy, reliability, and long term use. The reality is most homes at the lower range have 15/20 amp breakers and the Micro-40 CT is more than fine to use.

In my opinion when the breaker exceeds the above. To remain in the 80% range the next larger CT should be used. So for example if the next breaker is 30 amps I would move straight to a Micro-50 with out thought.
I'm going to have to disagree with Teken, not with the beneficial result of using a larger CT, but with the reason (NEC code 80% rule) for it. I also wouldn't choose the CT50, but that is more a result of Brultech pricing (just a fact and not an objection), and having to pay much more for the slight (in my opinion) increase in accuracy.

These CTs have a 24ga wire, which is rated
( https://www.gore.com/IndustrialCableCon ... specs.html )
for 2 amps. The CT40 will generate 0.02623 amps (26.23 mA) maximum, at 40 amps, or just over 1.3% of the maximum capacity of the wire. If you somehow managed to put 80 amps through the wire monitored by a CT40, it would, if I understand how Brultech CTs operate, still generate 0.02623 A, but even if the output voltage kept going up (in a linear manner) you would still just be at 2.6% of the maximum capacity of the wire.

Also, the CTs that Brultech sells are extremely accurate. Taking the CT40 again, a 1% error high is possible at some points, but at other points a 1% low error is possible. And, contrary to what dbreiser stated, "Every sensor I've ever used (and had access to calibration data) has always been more accurate in the center of its range than at either end," and not to disparage dbreiser as that is what I would have thought too, the least accurate (average) point for the CT40 is in the center of its range. And as "least accurate" is relative, this is still within 1%, so even if every circuit was monitored by a CT40, as a worst case scenario the overall accuracy of the combined circuits would still be, yes 1%, but I would think fairly close to 0%. I don't see the chart for the CT50, but even if it cuts the error to 0.5%, I don't really see a huge difference, in these home monitoring situations.

I also have to calculate in the economic costs for relying on the CT50 vs. CT40 or CT80, based on the pricing structure at Brultech. The Micro40 and Micro80 CTs cost $4.99 each, or down to $3.60 with 20 purchased. The Micro50 is $6.12 each, no matter how many are ordered. With 32 channels on the GEM, an order of 40 CTs is within reason. For the CT40 and/or CT80s, you'd be at $144.00 vs. $244.80, just over $100 saved, which in my opinion is significant. (And yes, with the correct choices Brultech gives more options when ordered as packages, but this is just to illustrate an example.)

If I was doing things over, I would order only the CT80s, instead of a mixture of CT40s and CT80s as I did. I had to then keep track of which circuits were CT40s and which were CT80s, and ran into the upsetting problem that some of the circuits I wanted to combine for monitoring were using different CTs, so I had to go back and swap CTs. And it ended up that I wanted to combine four circuits for monitoring, which was a technical overage for the CT40s, and I have to rely on the probability that all circuits won't be on and used at maximum simultaneously. Also, as previously referenced, at a minimum 20 CTs should be ordered for the price break, so if you ended up with 30 CT40s and 10 CT80s it would be more expensive.

As I stated above most of this comes down to personal choice and how the person expects to use the GEM in their personal environment. As you illustrated above in your environment you saw value and need to group several circuits into one.

You also knew from past experience if all of the CT's were the same future changes could be done with out issue.

These are all perfect examples of use case and specific requirements for the end user. With respect to the CT's (80% NEC / CEC) rule this was offered more as a guidance.

The CT's in the GEM do not operate like a real circuit in that no load current is actually flowing into the CT simply the CT translates the voltage into current values and in some its the reverse where it monitors the current and translates it into a voltage value that the GEM can break down to translate that value to something that is human readable.

Like I said before most people come into this area from other cheap toy like energy monitors. The sad reality is this cheap mentality is ever present and people tend to lose sight of why they are here today.

That real performance, reliability, and long term supported development costs money. With respect to the hardware this is literally a one time purchase like your home. Why would anyone not spend the money on the critical infrastructure of their home like three pane insulated glass?

98% efficient furnace, foundation wrap to protect against water penetration in the basement?

What does this have to do with the GEM? As you and I both agree the costs for the various CT's are so small in the big picture in literally 4 months you won't even remember the cost. :lol:

Like your home the GEM, Dash Box is a long term investment and not some random toy or fad product. Thousands of people across the globe didn't migrate to the Brultech hardware because it was sexy or had the latest fad App.

They migrated to the DB / GEM because its industry proven and continues to be developed by the maker with user feed back. There isn't another company in the world I have engaged over 25 years that has shown a *People First* view and relationship.

Trust me I know because I have used and talked to everyone from TED to Eaton Electric. :|

The bottom line is the OP has lots of things to consider and that obviously includes costs. This is not a small cost, this is an investment into your home and your future very much like your house. :mrgreen:
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
Buy me a cup of coffee: https://www.paypal.me/Teken https://gfinotify.com/ Discount Code: PC10
sub3marathonman
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:32 am

Re: purchase choices and configuration questions

Post by sub3marathonman » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:27 am

Teken wrote: Why would anyone not spend the money on the critical infrastructure of their home like three pane insulated glass?

98% efficient furnace, foundation wrap to protect against water penetration in the basement?
This reply is a bit off-topic, but it did remind me about when I was building our house.

I told the plumber I wanted the hot-water pipe to the bathroom on the opposite side of the house insulated. He looked at me like I was from another planet. Granted, this was several years ago, but it wasn't as if it had never been done before. I didn't just ask him to do it for free either, I would have of course paid extra for it. It absolutely didn't matter, I wasn't going to be able to get the one pipe insulated with him, he does it his way, and as it was a huge effort to find another decent plumber it didn't get done. Now, being here in Florida, I wasn't as worried as if I would have been in The Great White North, but still there was a noticeable difference these past days when it has been "cold" here, not as much that the hot water wasn't as hot but the cold water was much colder, so the same temperature setting on the shower resulted in cooler water.

One other detail I was tipped off to (but too late to help me) was from the electrician, who was a great guy. He said that so much electricity is wasted to the wiring losses, and it was his opinion that it would pay to oversize the wires to major energy users. I haven't been able to spend the time researching it for us, but I'm wondering if anybody (Teken :D ) has researched this.
Teken
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Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: The Bad Lands

Re: purchase choices and configuration questions

Post by Teken » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:38 am

sub3marathonman wrote:
Teken wrote: Why would anyone not spend the money on the critical infrastructure of their home like three pane insulated glass?

98% efficient furnace, foundation wrap to protect against water penetration in the basement?
This reply is a bit off-topic, but it did remind me about when I was building our house.

I told the plumber I wanted the hot-water pipe to the bathroom on the opposite side of the house insulated. He looked at me like I was from another planet. Granted, this was several years ago, but it wasn't as if it had never been done before. I didn't just ask him to do it for free either, I would have of course paid extra for it. It absolutely didn't matter, I wasn't going to be able to get the one pipe insulated with him, he does it his way, and as it was a huge effort to find another decent plumber it didn't get done. Now, being here in Florida, I wasn't as worried as if I would have been in The Great White North, but still there was a noticeable difference these past days when it has been "cold" here, not as much that the hot water wasn't as hot but the cold water was much colder, so the same temperature setting on the shower resulted in cooler water.

One other detail I was tipped off to (but too late to help me) was from the electrician, who was a great guy. He said that so much electricity is wasted to the wiring losses, and it was his opinion that it would pay to oversize the wires to major energy users. I haven't been able to spend the time researching it for us, but I'm wondering if anybody (Teken :D ) has researched this.
I don't want to detract from the OP's thread so if you wish to discuss this topic please do in the general section. As it was something that really did interest me even though it was pretty academic in the real world given the only thing you could do is ensure short direct runs.

In my personal case this is exactly what I did and with respect to wiring most of my home is wired with 12-2 wire but the breakers are loaded with 15 amp breakers.
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
Buy me a cup of coffee: https://www.paypal.me/Teken https://gfinotify.com/ Discount Code: PC10
dbreiser
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:11 pm

Re: purchase choices and configuration questions

Post by dbreiser » Wed Feb 03, 2016 11:28 pm

I appreciate all the comments, even the off-topic ones.

I asked sales for a price on a system (all micro-40's except 1 micro-50 plus 2 split 200's for the mains) last Thursday, but I haven't heard back yet. I hope it isn't straight a la carte pricing. I guess I'll have to decide once I hear back.

Getting a GEM is more of an expense to feed my data fetish than an investment. I seriously doubt I'll save an extra $800+ in power costs in the time I have left. My power company already says I'm at the bottom of the pack for "similar users," whatever that means. The only time I've been off the bottom peg on that graph is when my heat pump has failed and I've had to run solely on resistive heat while awaiting repair parts.

Despite Teken's disparagement, the Neurio is not a toy. For 15% of the cost of a GEM+Dashbox, and much simpler installation, I get total power use within 0.5% of the power meter, decent realtime total power use tracking, not quite as high resolution daily/weekly/monthly data, and real time true rms voltage readings of both legs of my split phase from inside the load center. They're trying to do in software what Brultech is using (much) more hardware to attain. They aren't there yet, but their appliance detection has gotten quite a bit better. They don't do so well in an all-electric house because of the more difficult baseline detection. I'll get a GEM because I want the high time resolution data per circuit. But I could do almost all the gross tracking required to save energy using long term killawatt data (I have a bunch of that) and a Neurio. I'm also not fond of waiting for software improvements in order to attain originally promised performance.

Dave
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