Home Install Project

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turbo
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 6:01 pm

Home Install Project

Post by turbo » Sat May 16, 2015 6:27 pm

Hi all,

I'm about to make a purchase of the Greeneye Monitor for my home. My initial impulse to purchase one was due to the attached studio rental at my house. Electric heat plus a flat fee electric bill make for a less than thrifty tenant when it comes to electrical use.

I tried using another energy monitor system with less than stellar results, so here I am. My goal would be to track all circuits, especially ones that are feeding my studio, and be able to present my tenant (and myself) with an accurate readout of monthly electricity use per room/circuit.

I've got a standard panel with 2-200 amp breakers at the top of the panel. Below that, 29 breakers total of which 14 are paired for 7 total 250V systems (2 electric ranges, water heater, dryer, furnace, heat pump, external building kiln).

This URL is a spreadsheet of the circuits plus a couple of shots of the open panel.

My plan is to route all the CT wires down through a knockout on the floor of the panel. The monitor will hang on the wall just below the panel. There is an electrical outlet within a few inches of this, so power for the monitor will be there. I also have a Powerline circuit set up, so the Powerline will also go on the same outlet and give an Ethernet connection straight to my router.

Hopefully, the above would make the installation fairly easy with no studs to cross or complications. Brultech seems to be out of stock on the 40 CT, so I'm thinking to get 29 80-CT's, 1 per circuit.

It would be good to know any gotchas in this scenario. I have some questions, like are the 80-CT's ok to use with 15 amp circuits. Also, I'm fairly sure I need to have 1 CT for each line feeding a 250V system, but a little vague on the details there.

Thanks for any tips or comments on my project. I'm about to buy and want to confirm I have got this understood sufficiently before spending any $ on it. I'm looking at buying the monitor, 2 200-CT's, plus 29 80-CT's, and the WIFI/Ethernet module.

Todd
bgrubb1
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Home Install Project

Post by bgrubb1 » Sat May 16, 2015 7:42 pm

I have mostly M80 CT's and resolution is still great. I believe the internal hole is smaller than the M40's, but big enough for probably most wires. I didn't use any splits (Only wire one phase of a 220 line and use the GEM Doubler) since I have seen some weird stuff in the past (Dryer heater coils on 240 with a 120 V tumbler motor) so no experience there. At one time I used the power line E-net stuff to go to my Pentair pool control and had mixed results. YMMV. Still cant go wrong with the GEM and Brultech Great product, great people. Information is power and my electric bill is down 66% based on the information
..Barry
Teken
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: The Bad Lands

Home Install Project

Post by Teken » Sun May 17, 2015 9:54 am

Hello Todd,

You can purchase either the micro 50 or 80. I would probably purchase the micro 50 just for the 1% accuracy tolerances for a little more. Keep in mind this is going to be a one time purchase for the lifetime of the product so keep that as the goal.

The extra (approx) $32.77 in cost you paid up front will be distant memory in a year. The end result is that all circuits will have the same tolerance and accuracy as the two mains. Which allows you to be comfortable and sure the data collected is accurate and meaningful.

As my partner in crime indicated you can use the software doubling feature in the GEM to off set costs for a true balanced 240 circuit that does not use a neutral. Keep in mind (ideally) a balanced 240 circuit should draw the same current in reality that is not always the case.

Perfect example is my HWT there are two elements in the unit and one of them for what ever reason draws down slightly more power when energized. With out the two CT's monitoring the two 120 feeds I would not have known this. This obviously high lights the fact some items even electric base board heaters may have variance(s) in their heating elements etc.

In the big scheme of things since the entire load is being monitored by the 200 amp CT's you will still get a very accurate picture and data aggregation of what's going on anyways.

Some quick tips before you go forth on this great journey are the following in no specific order.

- Down load and read all of the on line manuals for the product. This will give you a better sense of the install and what to expect. High light key areas from the manual that require clarification and ask those questions here for more insight.

- Have a method to mark and identify the CT wires exiting the service panel. This will be a huge asset down the road when trouble shooting is required. A year from now you will have no clue which black wire goes where with out opening the panel / GEM.

The use of *Ideal Wire Marker* labels are a great solution.

- Do not cut any of the CT wires unless you're sure the length is correct and the final location is not going to change. You can always extend the length of CT wires using alarm 22-4 / 22-2 wire or CAT6 Ethernet cable should it be required. Note proper termination is important and runs longer than 50 feet may pose a voltage drop which will impact the accuracy of the readings etc.

- GEM: Before you do anything program the unit with the network attributes (fixed IP) CT settings, SEG Key, etc. This will give you a better understanding of what to expect and allows you to be familiar with the GEM's internal set up page and the options available.

Its always best to do a few screen captures as the system is in a default state so you can return any changes you made to the system. Having a reference is key because memory will be short a month, year, etc down the line.

It should be noted you may have to refresh the GEM's set up page a few times before it displays this is normal so don't worry if it doesn't come up the first time around.

- Do not apply power to the GEM until you're sure all of the CT's are properly installed and facing the right direction in the service panel. Anytime you need to make changes to the CT's in the GEM best practices is to remove power from the unit and this includes the PT transformer.

- PT Transformer: It should be noted if you plug the PT transformer (this is what references the line voltage for the system) upside down the GEM will invert the readings from a positive to negative. Any channel can be inverted back from + to - via software. Basically what I am saying is once the system is fully set up and operational. Do not remove the PT transformer and plug it back in the opposite direction.

Doing so will make all your values the opposite than what you had before. ie. 100 watts will appear as -100 watts.

- Fine Tuning: This step is done to ensure you get the most accuracy out of the GEM. Using a DMM with true RMS measure the line voltage where the PT transformer is installed. You can adjust the PT Transformer value to reflect what your DMM meter indicates.

Each CT can also be fine tuned for better accuracy (assuming) they need to be. In my install thread you can read how this was done and what reference loads I used.

Should you have more questions please do let us know.
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
Buy me a cup of coffee: https://www.paypal.me/Teken https://gfinotify.com/ Discount Code: PC10
turbo
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 6:01 pm

Re: Home Install Project

Post by turbo » Mon May 18, 2015 9:27 pm

Thanks for the tips. That's some homework I need to get doing before I get started with the installation.

One quirk I've found in my panel is two breakers on the same circuit. In order for the circuit to be dead, I need to throw two different breakers in the panel. I realized this yesterday while trying to turn off an outlet for some repairs. I triggered several different ones, then realized it took two to get it turned off, one or the other breaker turn it on again.

Obviously not right, the question is whether I should get an electrician out pronto to fix this, especially so since if I measure both breakers, they would both be signaling the same current use.
Teken
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: The Bad Lands

Re: Home Install Project

Post by Teken » Wed May 20, 2015 8:54 am

turbo wrote: One quirk I've found in my panel is two breakers on the same circuit. In order for the circuit to be dead, I need to throw two different breakers in the panel. I realized this yesterday while trying to turn off an outlet for some repairs. I triggered several different ones, then realized it took two to get it turned off, one or the other breaker turn it on again.

Obviously not right, the question is whether I should get an electrician out pronto to fix this, especially so since if I measure both breakers, they would both be signaling the same current use.
I'm sorry can you expand on that again? In North America typically an electrician will (either) wire lights separate from the wall outlets. In some cases both are wired to the same breaker either because they ran out of slots in the breaker panel or preference / NEC & CEC code.

This is seen in hardwired smoke alarms in the home. They normally wire the hardwired smokes to a (common load) that can't be missed if the breaker is turned off.

So I guess what I am asking is are you saying in a particular room the lights are on one breaker and the outlets are on another? If so that is normal and nothing to worry about there.
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
Buy me a cup of coffee: https://www.paypal.me/Teken https://gfinotify.com/ Discount Code: PC10
sub3marathonman
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:32 am

Re: Home Install Project

Post by sub3marathonman » Wed May 20, 2015 9:38 am

Teken wrote:
turbo wrote: One quirk I've found in my panel is two breakers on the same circuit. In order for the circuit to be dead, I need to throw two different breakers in the panel. I realized this yesterday while trying to turn off an outlet for some repairs. I triggered several different ones, then realized it took two to get it turned off, one or the other breaker turn it on again.
I'm sorry can you expand on that again? In North America typically an electrician will (either) wire lights separate from the wall outlets. In some cases both are wired to the same breaker either because they ran out of slots in the breaker panel or preference / NEC & CEC code.

This is seen in hardwired smoke alarms in the home. They normally wire the hardwired smokes to a (common load) that can't be missed if the breaker is turned off.

So I guess what I am asking is are you saying in a particular room the lights are on one breaker and the outlets are on another? If so that is normal and nothing to worry about there.
I thought that was interesting too. From my understanding of the situation, on one circuit, which we don't know what it was for (lights / wall outlet / other), there were essentially two paths from the main panel, each controlled by a breaker. Thus, turning one breaker off did not stop the electricity to the load. Only if the second breaker, and the second wire running to the same load, was the circuit rendered dead. So in essence a duplicated circuit, which would be highly improper.

Now, I have read of instances where one outlet of a duplex outlet is wired from one circuit (and breaker) and the second outlet of the same duplex outlet is wired from a second circuit. I've somewhat seen the similar situation with the dishwasher/disposal undersink duplex outlet, one is controlled by a switch and a separate breaker, and the dishwasher is on its own circuit. I'm sure you can understand how I figured this out! :oops: But I didn't leave the disposal running for long!!

One interesting thing mentioned by Teken was the smoke alarm circuit. If I'm understanding correctly, they are on the same circuit as a critical load that is impossible to overlook if it is turned off, such as maybe the garage door opener circuit. Which makes great sense actually. But for my setup, they've just put them on their own dedicated circuit, which means theoretically if the breaker was turned off they would be on battery backup until they started beeping.
Teken
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: The Bad Lands

Re: Home Install Project

Post by Teken » Wed May 20, 2015 11:13 am

sub3marathonman wrote:
Teken wrote:
turbo wrote: One quirk I've found in my panel is two breakers on the same circuit. In order for the circuit to be dead, I need to throw two different breakers in the panel. I realized this yesterday while trying to turn off an outlet for some repairs. I triggered several different ones, then realized it took two to get it turned off, one or the other breaker turn it on again.
I'm sorry can you expand on that again? In North America typically an electrician will (either) wire lights separate from the wall outlets. In some cases both are wired to the same breaker either because they ran out of slots in the breaker panel or preference / NEC & CEC code.

This is seen in hardwired smoke alarms in the home. They normally wire the hardwired smokes to a (common load) that can't be missed if the breaker is turned off.

So I guess what I am asking is are you saying in a particular room the lights are on one breaker and the outlets are on another? If so that is normal and nothing to worry about there.
I thought that was interesting too. From my understanding of the situation, on one circuit, which we don't know what it was for (lights / wall outlet / other), there were essentially two paths from the main panel, each controlled by a breaker. Thus, turning one breaker off did not stop the electricity to the load. Only if the second breaker, and the second wire running to the same load, was the circuit rendered dead. So in essence a duplicated circuit, which would be highly improper.

Now, I have read of instances where one outlet of a duplex outlet is wired from one circuit (and breaker) and the second outlet of the same duplex outlet is wired from a second circuit. I've somewhat seen the similar situation with the dishwasher/disposal undersink duplex outlet, one is controlled by a switch and a separate breaker, and the dishwasher is on its own circuit. I'm sure you can understand how I figured this out! :oops: But I didn't leave the disposal running for long!!

One interesting thing mentioned by Teken was the smoke alarm circuit. If I'm understanding correctly, they are on the same circuit as a critical load that is impossible to overlook if it is turned off, such as maybe the garage door opener circuit. Which makes great sense actually. But for my setup, they've just put them on their own dedicated circuit, which means theoretically if the breaker was turned off they would be on battery backup until they started beeping.
I believe you're spot on in the above and if the OP is seeing this depending upon where he lives and what NEC cycle they have adopted that may be OK.

Breaking off the tab on the outlet back in the day and having it powered by two power supplies was common in many places. Not very common in Canada though people have done the same during home reno's.

Nothing wrong in doing this but since its so uncommon it could throw someone for a loop and does potentially place a person in danger if they believed it was turned off. This is why its against CEC for us here because a person would assume turning off a single breaker and just measuring the top and seeing zero on the meter. Would think that circuit was dead when in fact the lower (separately powered) outlet was still energized!

I can see why its been banned in many cities, states, provinces.

With respect to your smoke alarms being on a dedicated circuit that is my preference. But where I live they include it in a common circuit per CEC codes here. I like it being separate because if you need to do some repairs or trouble shooting its just plain easier!
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
Buy me a cup of coffee: https://www.paypal.me/Teken https://gfinotify.com/ Discount Code: PC10
tnakelski
Posts: 74
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 1:27 pm

Re: Home Install Project

Post by tnakelski » Fri May 22, 2015 7:03 am

On the circuits that have the tab broken off on the outlets it is a good practice to use a double pole breaker. This method would turn off both feeds when the double pole breaker is shutoff. This should also be done on any multiwire Branch Circuits.
turbo
Posts: 34
Joined: Sat May 16, 2015 6:01 pm

Re: Home Install Project

Post by turbo » Sat May 23, 2015 4:52 pm

What sub3marathonman said.

I have two separate breakers, not contiguous on the panel that both need to be off for the circuit to be off. Either breaker turns it on again.

The circuit panel is in a studio unit converted from a garage. There are outlets from the studio and from the living room in the main portion of the house on the circuit(s). My picture is that less than expert wiring was done when the conversion took place. Somewhere in the three-way switches/light switches and outlets, two hots are tied together from each breaker.

The studio has a couple of light switches that apparently do nothing so there's definitely evidence of substandard work.

In thinking about this, my plan is to map every outlet and switch on the circuit now as it is. Then start looking for an outlet where two hots are coming in. This might beyond my skills to locate though. I'm good doing basics but troubleshooting in-wall live circuits isn't my skill set. Maybe I might luck out and find it.
sub3marathonman
Posts: 95
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:32 am

Re: Home Install Project

Post by sub3marathonman » Tue May 26, 2015 10:01 am

I was wondering if the two independent circuits / breakers controlled exactly the same outlets and/or lights.

If so, I think I'd at a minimum shut one off now, just to bring things back to a more expected configuration. There are rules about abandoning a circuit, but if there are two separate conductors wired for the exact same circuit, I'd look into that.
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