Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

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nbarnard
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:37 pm
Location: New Brunswick

Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

Post by nbarnard » Fri May 08, 2015 6:25 am

Hi folks,

So after having the GEM installed for a couple days now it is becoming apparent that I am spending a good portion of my electric bill on electric hot water heating. That said, I have a hot water loop installed to give near instant HW to every bathroom/fixture. The pump currently maintains a min temp in loop based on timer which is currently active 19 hrs a day. Lines have minimal (1/4" insulation). Circulator pump is only 35 watt or so.

The problem:
Maintaining a constant hot loop when not in use is expensive. So one improvement would be to install doorbell style switches in each bathroom / kitchen to initiate the distribution loop pump "on demand". However that still has some concerns as appliances wouldn't use it (Dishwasher/clothes washer), and would be inconvenient (wife doesn't like the idea).

My goal:
Either have the pump initiated by monitoring circuits for usage then running pump (bathroom lights, light over kitchen sink, appliances on (DW, etc). Ideally have the GEM trigger a relay or run macro to turn on an outlet on my Web Power Switch.
or
install water flow meter on start of HW loop to trigger pump, this may be most efficient way...
or
any other ideas?

P.S. I will probably install a second layer of insulation on the 50% of loop that is still accessible, and possibly drop HW tank set temp to 50C instead of 60C. Both these would help a fair bit.

thanks,
Nathan
bgrubb1
Posts: 176
Joined: Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

Post by bgrubb1 » Fri May 08, 2015 8:01 am

In my case, it takes ~ 15 minutes to fill the loop with Hot Water after cool down.
I have the pump set up on a timer to run before / during morning shower time and off otherwise.
My Dishwasher heats the water on its own if necessary

In the case of my main shower which is at the farthest point from the WH, I installed a really nice Speckman shower head and drilled out the flow restrictor. It now takes 40 seconds to get HW to that point if the loop is cold and the higher flow makes showers SO NICE :-)
...Barry
nbarnard
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:37 pm
Location: New Brunswick

Re: Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

Post by nbarnard » Fri May 08, 2015 8:15 am

bgrubb1 wrote:In my case, it takes ~ 15 minutes to fill the loop with Hot Water after cool down.
I have the pump set up on a timer to run before / during morning shower time and off otherwise.
My Dishwasher heats the water on its own if necessary

In the case of my main shower which is at the farthest point from the WH, I installed a really nice Speckman shower head and drilled out the flow restrictor. It now takes 40 seconds to get HW to that point if the loop is cold and the higher flow makes showers SO NICE :-)
...Barry
Hey Barry, I should have mentioned both my wife and I work from home so we want hot water access randomly throughout the day. I absolutely agree on the high flow shower head! Worst case I have a 20gpm faucet on tub so can turn that on for 10 seconds or so and have hot to the master bath (if loop is off such as in early morning). Still we are rarely up there throughout the day.

I am not familiar with the other home automation systems like ISY and how they might be able to interface GEM and trigger an external even like cycling a relay or turning on a Web Power Switch.
Teken
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: The Bad Lands

Re: Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

Post by Teken » Fri May 08, 2015 9:04 am

nbarnard wrote: I am not familiar with the other home automation systems like ISY and how they might be able to interface GEM and trigger an external even like cycling a relay or turning on a Web Power Switch.
Hello Nathan,

To control a relay would require several items to accomplish the goal. In HA you have the choice of protocols from X-10, Insteon, Z-Wave, Zigbee, UPB. The majority of people are using Insteon / Z-Wave as the choice of automating their homes.

Next if you wish to use the ISY Series Controller you have two choices to get the data into the controller. Either purchase the ISY IZ or purchase a standard ISY controller coupled with the Brultech Dash Box.

There are pro's and con's in going either way and comes down to what you ultimately need. Going the route of the Dash Box (DB) to send state variables to the ISY will allow you to keep the ISY free (hardware wise) to include Z-Wave.

In essence that would mean the ISY Series Controller would allow you to have ability to use and control X-10, Insteon, and Z-Wave. All the while sending energy readings via state variables from the DB to the ISY controller.

Going the route of native supported energy readings from the GEM via Zigbee to the ISY IZ will provide actual nodes in the ISY device tree which allows visual view / tracking. It also allows you to create programs a little easier.

My dear friend Barry has gone the first route which is GEM, DB, ISY with Z-Wave. I have gone GEM, DB, ISY IZ route.
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
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nbarnard
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:37 pm
Location: New Brunswick

Re: Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

Post by nbarnard » Fri May 08, 2015 9:15 am

I do have the dashbox so ISY controller sounds like good option. Could you recommend the devices I'd need to control the receptacle? Currently looking at most cost effective way. Preferably turn on for set time every time a circuit or group of circuits goes over setpoint, or I suppose for the duration of controlling circuits being on.
Teken
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: The Bad Lands

Re: Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

Post by Teken » Fri May 08, 2015 10:42 am

Hello Nathan,

You could simply purchase the standard ISY controller with a 2413S PLM. This is what bridges the Insteon network to the ISY. Then purchase a Insteon relay outlet to turn on/off the load.

This is the dual band, dual control outlet from Smartlabs: http://www.smarthome.com/insteon-2663-2 ... white.html

NOTE: Just in case it was not made clear you can purchase a base model ISY Series Controller. Once you're comfortable with the unit you can upgrade any aspects of the controller from hardware to software.

Meaning if you want more programs / links from the base 300 to 1000. Simply purchase the update module to make it so. If you want to integrate Z-wave at a later point because there is a device that you like based on cost or features. You can purchase the Z-Wave kit and upgrade the controller from that point.

Going this route allows a good balance of finances and value at your own pace.
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
Buy me a cup of coffee: https://www.paypal.me/Teken https://gfinotify.com/ Discount Code: PC10
nbarnard
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:37 pm
Location: New Brunswick

Re: Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

Post by nbarnard » Fri May 08, 2015 10:52 am

Are there any good write-ups on doing this? I haven't had time to research ISY capabilities and configurations.
Teken
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: The Bad Lands

Re: Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

Post by Teken » Fri May 08, 2015 10:54 am

nbarnard wrote:Are there any good write-ups on doing this? I haven't had time to research ISY capabilities and configurations.
Are you talking about in a general sense? If so in this same forum and in my signature you will see a install thread which I have been updating on a consistent basis.

If there are finer points you need to know please do ask.
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
Buy me a cup of coffee: https://www.paypal.me/Teken https://gfinotify.com/ Discount Code: PC10
nbarnard
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2015 3:37 pm
Location: New Brunswick

Re: Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

Post by nbarnard » Fri May 08, 2015 10:56 am

OK yes general sense. I guess I just paid attention to the gem/db section. Great to visualize the setup/config before purchasing. Thanks for your help Teken.
Teken
Posts: 2700
Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2010 4:09 pm
Location: The Bad Lands

Re: Triggering Demand Hot water recirculation loop pump

Post by Teken » Fri May 08, 2015 11:00 am

nbarnard wrote:OK yes general sense. I guess I just paid attention to the gem/db section. Great to visualize the setup/config before purchasing. Thanks for your help Teken.
No problem and keep in mind as you did here please do sign up in the various forums for assistance should it be required. The ISY Forum from UDI is very active and there is lots of incredible talented people in that forum.

Along with vast amounts of information about setting up, programming, or just general ideas to automate things. If there is any cross over for setting up the DB to send state variables to the ISY please do keep it here in the Brultech forum.

You can either keep it in this original thread or do so in the Dash Box forum.

UDI Forum: http://forum.universal-devices.com/

Insteon Forum: http://forum.smarthome.com/
Teken . . .

My ongoing projects thread: http://www.brultech.com/community/viewt ... ?f=2&t=929
Buy me a cup of coffee: https://www.paypal.me/Teken https://gfinotify.com/ Discount Code: PC10
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